RECENT COMMENTS RSS| 1 | Michael Jackson To Give Paul McCartney His Songs Back 5:01 pm |
| 2 | Featured Band: Justin Kline 4:50 pm |
| 21 | Katy Perry Is Immature, Single Again 4:22 pm |
| 3 | Morning Buzz: Fall Out Boy, Blender, Willie Nelson, Young Widows 4:19 pm |
| 231 | Tokio Hotel Fakes Live Shows 4:16 pm |
| 1 | Interview: Matt Daniels of Thinklab 1:00 pm |
| 3 | The Guy From Jack’s Mannequin Is Some Kind Of Author Or Something 11:52 am |
| 5 | Morning Buzz: Animal Collective, RIAA, Oasis, Death Cab 11:38 am |
| 21 | Suicide Silence Gets Back at MTV 2:21 am |
| 3 | Watson Twins Sharing Stage with Ben Kweller for February Tour 12:15 am |
| 4 | Levon Helm ‘Tours’ — Inside New York State 8:02 pm |
| 71 | Jeffree Star Kicks Travis Barker While He’s Down 8:01 pm |
| 7 | A Grand Design: Frodus 7:39 pm |
| 15 | Insane Clown Posse Sued After Throwing Faygo Into Audience 6:36 pm |
| 5 | Drowning Pool Music Used To Torture Prisoners 1:14 pm |
Buzzgrinder recently spoke with John Sellers, author of the critically acclaimed memoir Perfect From Now On: How Indie Rock Saved My Life (Simon & Schuster), about good music, bad music and snakes. Yes, snakes.
Your book is, of course, your particular journey through indie rock. Several of the bands you mention being most dear to you throughout the journey include The Smiths, New Order, Dinosaur Jr., and then your book closes with a glowing write up of Guided by Voices. It’s been a few years since you’ve written that book and I’m wondering which indie bands you’re into lately? Which more recent bands have impressed you? And are you still as obsessed with Guided by Voices or has a different band been stealing your attention these days?
That’s a good question. I am definitely still a slave to the music of Bob Pollard. And, you know, I still think that The Smiths are amazing, and Pavement, and all those other bands I write about. As far as the new bands…I’ll probably be listening to Guided by Voices and those bands until I’m, like, 100. I pretty much know that I’ll never not like them. But as far as new bands go…the great thing about having written this book, a book about your musical obsessions, is that everyone knows what your taste is. So I’ve been getting a lot of recommendations from people who’ve read the book. Like, “Oh you should check out this band…you should check out this band.” And, you know, just like anything a lot of them don’t stick. I’ll listen to it and be like, “Oh, that’s alright, but not for me.” But one band that I definitely discovered this past year is Times New Viking. They’re a power trio from Columbus, Ohio. They play, like, really lo-fi music. But in concert they’re better than they are on their records, which is always a sign of a good band. If a band is better live than they are on record I tend to like them more. They just put out an album on Matador. That’s one. And then…I really haven’t gotten totally obsessed or anything with any other band. I did like that Silversun Pickups album.
So you definitely prefer the more organic, primarily guitar-based indie rock music, as opposed to the kind with electronics and such, such as Goldfrapp or Hot Chip…
Yeah, that stuff sucks [laughs]. No, it doesn’t suck, it’s just not for me. Like, when I was in high school I liked the bands that were sort of hard rock…metal. But I didn’t like any of the ones that had keyboards. I didn’t like Night Ranger and I didn’t like White Lion; but I loved Motley Crue and I loved Guns N’ Roses and Van Halen…So I feel like that sort of has probably carried over and, you know…it’s funny because the first band I got into that’s like an indie band is New Order. Through that, I discovered Joy Division and some of these other, like, darker rock bands. I don’t know, I just can’t even really listen to music with keyboards in it very often. So, having said that, Times New Viking actually has a keyboardist. But it’s more, like, used because they don’t have a bassist. She’s kind of more like the bassist. I mean, it’s not like a slam to the music…it’s just not for me. There are certain bands that I do like that have keyboardists, like the Shins who I really like. But that’s not really the main focus of that band. I tend not to like the woosie stuff, like singer-songwriters. I like to rock out.
Have you gotten into much of the very orchestral music? Artists such as, you know, Arcade Fire, Sufjan Stevens or DeVotchKa?
I do like Arcade Fire. I like them because, you know, the lead singer’s voice is really awesome. And their songs are more energetic so they actually do kind of rock. Whereas I’m not a big Sufjan Stevens fan, or like, you know, Joanna Newsom. That to me…spending, like, a half hour listening to Joanna Newsom is basically like my equivalent of hell.
Yeah, she’s definitely the complete opposite of all the other bands you like.
[laughs] Yeah, it really is. You know, everyone has their different taste in music. Mine is just more rock-based. That’s not to say that if there’s a good song out there that isn’t a rocker I’m not gonna like it. I’m just predisposed to liking bands that tend to be loud.
One thing you highlighted in your book regarding which type of bands you like, other than the characteristics you just mentioned, is when a songwriter is just incredibly prolific. Robert Pollard, for example, from Guided by Voices has written countless songs. Are there any other artists you know of, particularly contemporary ones, who are as prolific as him?
I’d say he’s got to be…if he’s not the most he’s one the top three most prolific songwriters of all time. And that’s just because he figured out how to release stuff on his own quickly. And he writes songs so fast…and also a lot of his songs are short. His albums have, like, 25 songs on them. Whatever. But yeah, Ryan Adams is really prolific. I would say he’s lately been rivaling Pollard in terms of production. Go to his website and he puts out songs all the time that are just internet-only releases. But, as far as other musicians, like, you’d think that Bob Dylan has written a lot songs…but, really, when you take a look at all the songs he’s written it’s really only…about 400 or 500. And we’re talking in, like, 30 years. Whereas Pollard probably wrote 400 or 500 in the last three.
Right. When you look into a lot of these bands that play on the margins, like Guided by Voices, they’ve written so many more songs than a lot of the more public bands. Well…I’m not sure if Guided by Voices would be considered on the margins. No, they probably would be. I mean, I think a lot of people have at least heard of Guided by Voices…
People just haven’t heard them. Because it’s really hard to get into Guided by Voices because you need to know where to start…it’s really overwhelming. A lot of people just don’t really care enough to take the time to find the album that’s right for them. Like, they’ll hear one album that’s recommended and then they won’t like it, so they won’t listen to anything else. But their sound has changed so much over the years…
Have you listened to any of Brian Jonestown Massacre’s work? Their lead singer and songwriter Anton Newcombe is really quite prolific. He’s apparently insane, but quite a songwriter.
Yeah, I have heard them, and they’re pretty good. But I haven’t heard much more than the two albums that a friend sent me. I would say that Pollard’s probably the top dog there.
Oh, before I go to the next question…Ryan Adam’s isn’t too “woosie” for you?
[laughs] Ryan Adams is not for me. It’s, like, alt-country. I liked Uncle Tupelo because they were alt-country, but they rocked. I would kind of put My Morning Jacket in alt-country sometimes. But yeah…[Adams] is not really my type of person. He’s kind of hard to take.
But you’re impressed with how prolific of a songwriter he is.
Definitely. And, I mean, I like that. I like that idea that you can just write a song and then put it out and not really care…I mean, there is something to be said about quality control. But the great thing about the prolific artists is that if you’re a fan of those bands you really get your money’s worth.
And hopefully that will translate to the stage. As you mention in your book, if you go to a Guided by Voices concert you’re more likely to get a three hour performance than you are from more mainstream, or even Indie, performers.
Totally. And you never know what you’re gonna hear because [Pollard] changes the set list all the time…Mountain Goats do that a lot. [They’re] a little too wimpy, but I like the guy’s lyrics. They also put out a decent amount of music. I’d say they’re probably up there in terms of indie-rockers who put out a lot of music.
His voice is really hard to take.
Yeah, he’s got a voice that you either…it’s basically the deciding factor on whether you’re gonna like them. A lot of their stuff is really soft and I just get a little bored.
Not enough distortion and jangly guitars…
[laughs] Yeah.
Now, back to your book. One thing about your book that I found extremely helpful is that it gives a much better idea of what the very oblique term “indie rock” means. I think one mistake that I’m guilty of is conflating “indie rock” and “alternative rock.” Your book definitely highlights that the two are different….for instance, at end of the book you have, say, “10 Best Indie Bands” and “10 Best Alternative Bands.” Separate lists, implying that they are separate genres. Based on your experience as a music fan and as a music journalist, how would you differentiate between “indie rock” and “alternative rock”?
Yeah…well, there’s definitely an aesthetic difference. But, in terms of just the terminology, indie rock is a more recent term. Alternative rock, you pretty much started hearing that in the late ’80s and early ’90s. That’s what music was. And even if there was a band that you would definitely call indie rock today, you would just call them alt-rock back then. Now you don’t really hear the term alternative rock very much. That doesn’t mean that it’s gone away. You know, if this were 20 years ago…15 years ago and the Shins came out they would definitely be considered, you know, alternative rock or whatever. An alternative band. So it is just sort of a shift in the terminology. But, as far as the aesthetic, I feel that alternative music was, you know…you had independent labels that were actually independent, whereas today a lot of the bands that you hear, like the Shins or whatever…It’s a tough question to answer. I think that indie rock has become this term that applies more to music of the softer, more “twee” type of music. Songs that are not going to be played on mainstream radio, for sure…the Shins are a perfect example of an indie rock band. I would say that Pavement was probably the first indie rock band, in a way. I think that’s basically when the term really started. You know, like when [Pavement] and Sebedoah came to be the two big indie rock bands…But the difference between their sound and the indie rock bands today is they actually ruled. They were loud…and I think it’s just sort of shifted away from that. I feel like I’m not answering this question right.
No no, you’ve highlighted a lot of great points. And I think it’s interesting that you’ve pointed out the close association between current indie rock and that sound which is now referred to a “twee.” It seems that the term “twee” is fast becoming to indie rock what “emo” has become to punk rock. You know, when a punk band has become “emo” a lot of people don’t like them anymore [laughs]. I think the same thing can often be said about bands that go “twee.” But, even aside from that “twee” sound, do you think a lot of the difference between indie and alternative rock is simply the fact that indie bands are, or at least started, with more independence? That they started on independent labels? Because if you think of the alternative rock bands, such as The Lemonheads or Gin Blossoms, to name a few, they were all on major labels. They all had mainstream radio play, MTV, you name it.
The way that I define it in the book is…if a band feels like they’re indie, even if they’re on a major label, you can’t fault them for being on a major label. Like Sonic Youth has been on Geffen for, like, 15 years or so and they still are one of the most, you know, eclectic and experimental bands out there. And I guarantee their records don’t make any money. It’s not, like, just because they’re on a major label that they’re instantly a mainstream band or whatever. A band like Built to Spill is on Warner Brothers, and they’ll never be on the radio.
And you also mentioned in your book that Guided by Voices actually tried to go mainstream at one time.
Yeah, they did. They had one little stab at it and they realized it’s just not their thing. I think Guided by Voices would have been a really, really successful band…I feel like they were sort of an anachronism. Like, if they had been around in the 70s they probably would have had a better chance to be more well know…because they do sound a lot like The Who.
Right. There’s definitely some similarities between their live performances as well. Now, it’s interesting that you’ve highlighted how little airplay that indie bands get. It’s true, you don’t hear them on mainstream radio or anything. But I hear them on mainstream TV shows and movies all the time. Especially on, say, The O.C.
Yeah, I actually feel like The O.C was a huge factor in indie rock sort of sucking. Because they had this definite type of band that they would put on it. Like that one band [Phantom Planet] that did the title. You know, it was an alright song. But I just kind of feel that 15 years ago they wouldn’t have even existed. The alternative labels would have been too cool to carry them.
But they wouldn’t have been radio-friendly enough for the mainstream either.
Yeah.
The next question ties into this whole discussion of indie vs. alternative rock. It is a little more nuanced than my last question, so perhaps it will be easier for you to answer it. Obviously indie rock, like anything, really, isn’t a static genre but a constantly evolving movement. At the same time, there are certain characteristics of indie rock that really are essential to its identity. For instance, true indie music should allow the artists a significant amount of freedom to be more daring musically, to have more independent control over the promotional and distributional aspects of it, and, ideally at least, there should be a stronger connection between the bands and the fans than, say, in mainstream music circles. Now, currently these characteristics, this “independence,” are very tied to the internet…you know, MySpace, online zines and blogs, MP3 sites, etc. What are your thoughts on it’s current state? Do you think all of these internet resources better help indie music/musicians hold fast to their own identity and to the identity of indie rock? Are there any particular critiques you have of the “MySpace generation?”
I think it’s great for, you know, if there’s like a band that…let’s just use TImes New Viking, for example…Like, it’s great that they have a MySpace page where people can go, or a website where people can go and check out their music and decide ahead of time whether they want to get into them or not. I do, in a way, think that the ease of the internet…the fact that the internet is there to make it easier for people to hear music also can be a dangerous thing, or a bad thing, because there’s just no filter. Before you had this system where you would never be able to put out an album unless someone agreed to put it out. And usually the people who agreed to put things out, at least in terms of indie rock and alternative labels, generally had some sort of sense of whether it’s good or not [laughs]. And there are so many bands that think that they’re better than they are, and they’re putting their stuff on MySpace and the internet, and it just creates more noise you have to go through to get the good stuff. Now, it’s great for some bands because you can become famous overnight. Like Ok Go…I’m kind of an old guy, but I do miss the days before it because it just seemed the quality was higher.
Now, just out of curiosity, in regards to bands that, thanks to the internet, became famous overnight, what do you think of Clap Your Hands Say Yeah?
They’re like a classic example of a band that self-promoted themselves into stardom, and they backed it up with a really, really great couple of songs on that album. I think they’re great. Not necessarily for me, but I understand completely why people like them. There’s a lot of bands that have gotten famous recently I just don’t get why they’re famous, but a band like [Clap], where their songs are definitely catchy, kind of interesting, and a little bit innovative…I totally understand them, and I understand Arcade Fire, and I understand Interpol.
What are some of the bands that you don’t understand? I know you’ve listed several of these in your book, but it would still be good for readers to find out about a few of those bands that bother you.
I would say the person that pisses me off the most is Joanna Newsome. I just don’t get it. Like, a chick on stage using stupid lyrics and playing the harp. The harp has to be the least masculine instrument. Either that or the french horn.
There actually is a guy who plays the french horn in his act. He goes by The Wizard. It’s horrible.
The Wizard?
Yeah. It’s the some of the worst shit I’ve heard in my life. And I like a lot of that artsy-farsty music, too.
I think that’s it. I just don’t like music that’s pretentious. I tend to like bands that just get up there and rock and don’t care about fashion and don’t care about their image. They just want to play their music. [People] who just don’t give a shit about what they look like, they just want to rock out…Anybody that has one of those big bushy beards, I’m just not going to like that band because they’re just going to be really pretentious…and I don’t like freak-folk; it bores the shit out of me.
I do like a lot of it, but it’s more the personalities that drive me nuts. Like Devendra Banhart. I like his music, but all the interviews I’ve read of him have made me cringe.
Like, pretentious?
Well, he doesn’t make sense when he speaks. It sounds like he wants to sound smart, but he just sounds senseless. And he always seems like he’s trying too hard to be a hippy. But yeah, I liked him until I read some of his interviews.
[laughs] That’s actually a good point. Like, there are bands that I’m into, and then I either see them live or read an interview with them and I’m like, “I can’t support this.” Because they’re either really annoying live or they’re pretentious, or just like a total douche bag.
[Laughs] In your book you seemed to have that same opinion on Bright Eyes.
Oh my god. Bright Eyes. He drives me fucking nuts. I mean, talk about sensitive! I mean, come on! You know, but the other things about all these groups I’m missing…I haven’t heard enough of them to really give their music a solid opinion, but I don’t get it. I don’t understand why people like this person. I understand the Bright Eyes because girls think he’s cute. I don’t understand why guys like him. I can’t get it.
I do think, with Bright Eyes’ lyrics, that there’s a certain political directness about his lyrics that is appealing, especially in light of the current political climate where so much is hidden.
Ok.
I do think he’s a good songwriter.
Ok. He’s also pretty prolific too, right?
Definitely.
Like, he’s got a few projects, right? Bright Eyes and his own work.
Well, Bright Eyes is basically his solo work. He was also in a band called Desaparecidos.
What’s his name?
Conor Oberst.
[laughs] That’s right.
There’s a lot I respect about the Saddle Creek scene. And I’ve interviewed several artists from there and they’re always very unpretentious.
Yeah. It’s really hard to define all of this, but there’s definitely two tiers of alternative and indie rock. One is the louder stuff that you’re more likely to find on Matador or Sub Pop…or Merge. And then you have the woosier but definitely alternative bands that you would find more on Saddle Creek and other labels. There’s, like, two different tiers. And it’s hard to picture them being in the same category. I really don’t equate them. Maybe old school indie rock and new school indie rock.
Right. Though it seems that at the end of the day what unites them is that most of them at least started on and independent label. Even if now they are on mainstream labels and have agents, which, as we spoke of earlier, is fine. You know, you’ve got to get your music out there somehow.
Yeah. It’s funny because the music business has evolved so much. But a band like The New Pornographers, they’re on Matador, but I feel they could be a major label band. They’re good, but they’re totally different sounding than, like, Bright Eyes. And yet you’re supposed to consider them both indie rock.
Sure. And speaking of The New Pornographers…there’s Neko Case. She’s considered part of the indie scene, but a lot of her music is flat out, honky tonk country.
Oh yeah. She’s not indie rock. But when she’s solo, I feel she’s more just like an old school Loretta Lynn type.
What do you think of Broken Social Scene? Do you like them?
I do, sort of. I also have a policy about bands. If they have more than five members, they get downgraded.
I remember reading about that policy in your book. So I was surprised when you said you like Arcade Fire.
I like them, they just have too many fucking members in their band. Like, do you really need that third person to be walking around and drum? No, you don’t need that. Really, you’re cutting into your own money; you have to pay another person.
Actually, I did interview this one band a while back called The Cinematic Underground. Well, there’re seven or eight people in it. And when I asked them why they have so many people in their band, they answered, “It’s the only way we can afford to pay the rent in Boston.” [laughs]
[laughs] That’s good. I like that.
But anyways, one reason why I brought up Broken Social Scene is that they’ve definitely got that indie sound nailed, and you probably wouldn’t hear them on the radio. But Feist, who is a member of that band, has become quite famous in the mainstream. And as far as sound goes, she’s all over the places. It’s part indie, but also some R&B influence, jazz…
Right.
Alright, we should wrap this up. I do have one final question. Last time we spoke you mentioned that you’re working on a new book. Talk a little about that.
Yeah, I’m working on another book with the same publisher. It’s called, The Old Man and the Swamp. My dad was — well, he’s still alive, but he’s retired — he was a snake expert. He would go drive around, listening to Bob Dylan, and go hunting for snakes. He was the guy that the Department of Natural Resources would call on to do surveys of endangered snakes in Michigan, because they were considering building something on the land. So his survey would prevent that from happening, or if [the snakes] were thriving then they could go ahead and build on the land. So that’s what he did. And he’s also just a really weird guy. When I was younger I was like, “What the hell is he doing?” Why did he go away for weeks at a time and come back smelling like, basically, someone poured cigarette water all over his head. He would smell so bad when he came home. He would sleep in his car, which was a Honda Civic hatchback. I was like, “What the hell is he doing? Why would he possibly think that that’s fun?” I think partially because of him I’m just not an outdoorsman [laughs].
[Laughs] Yeah, having a bad smelling father would do that.
I also don’t like Dylan because that’s all he would play. I actually recently, last year, I was like, “Alright, I’ve got to figure out what he used to do.” We actually went into the swamp together and I hunted for snakes, and I hated every minute of it. And when you hate something that much, you just kind of realize that you have to write about it. So I’m going to go back with him again this summer and actually record stuff, cause I didn’t take notes last time. So I’m going to do it again and force myself to try to catch a snake myself. To go into the water and just, like, do everything that I would never want to do. And then I’m using that to just kind of talk about my weird childhood.
Are you gonna bring Guided by Voices into the discussion? [laughs]
[laughs] I think I’ve exhausted the Guided by Voices discussion at this point. But, yeah, I’ll definitely talk about music in there. I tend to write about things that I’m passionate about or I hate. If I really love something or really hate it I’ll probably write about it. I can’t see myself writing a 300 page book without discussing music in some way or another. But it definitely isn’t a music book.
So the book isn’t going to be out for a while, then?
Yeah. Originally the idea I had was to get in a car with my dad, drive, maybe take a month long trip together, and just use it to talk about Bob Dylan. That was my original idea a couple of years ago before I wrote Perfect from Now On. I really wanted to write a book about music…I knew that my dad had to figure in it somehow, because he basically is responsible for me rebelling against that music and listening to my own type. Then I thought about what it would take to spend a month in a car with him. Yeah, I didn’t really want to do that. It would be terrible.
Is there anything else you’d like to address? That you’d like readers to know?
Well, I feel like with [Perfect from Now On]…I don’t think you need to know necessarily the bands I talk about to enjoy it. It’s really just about what it’s like to be a fan of music. I think it’s important — it’s fun — for people to look back on the things they used to like when they were a kid, and then see how they got to point A to Z. Like, “Oh, I listen to this kind of music now, but what did I listen to to help me get here.” And really try to figure out why they like certain types of music, and then, you know, I went back and traced it. The paperback has a list of every concert that I’ve ever been to; that was awesome. Sitting around…figuring out exactly where I was on that date. I have a lot of the ticket stubs. I probably kept 60 percent. The more recent ones were pretty easy to find. And I would write down in my planners over the years, “Going to see this band.” It’s just fun to talk about music. That’s been the greatest thing about it. Meeting people who really are passionate about music. Even if I don’t like what they like. Somebody tried to get me into The Mountain Goats. Even if I don’t like The Mountain Goats, I appreciate that somebody tried to do that. And the great thing about that is if I had liked them I would have had a ton of music to discover. I wish I had written this book when I was 15 because I would have been into the music that I like now way sooner. I liked the worst type of music when I was a teenager. I liked Duran Duran until I was 17. It’s OK for a girl to do that maybe, but a dude? No…[laughs]
They released a new album recently, you know.
Yeah, I heard that Justin Timberlake was involved…so, no way in hell was I going to listen to it [laughs].
To read more of John Sellers writings and/or to order Perfect From Now On check out his blog, www.johnsellers.net.
Picture of the book provided by lizzyfc.
Written by Sean Cannon
this reads like a long lost love letter from gym class……
burb.
book signing flip.
In other words: “I like music. I like to listen to music that I like. Other people like different music. Some of it’s okay but it’s just not for me. And, like, this particular kind of music is special because its fans are so loyal and the lead singer has an ‘h’ in his name.”